http://www.centertao.org// Life and philosophy from a Taoist perspective en carl@playingbyear.com carl@playingbyear.com http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss 60 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:02:59 GMT Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:02:59 GMT http://www.centertao.org// http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4353#4353 Note: I italicize phrases I borrow from the chapter, and link to phrases I borrow from other chapters to help tie chapters together. While making it more tedious to read, the Tao Te Ching is best pondered in the context of the whole.]

Taking on himself the humiliation and the calamity of the state is rare to be sure. Mostly I see a universal tendency to either cheer the state (patriot) or denigrate the state (protester). This is not only true of the nation state, but the state of anything in human affairs. This suggests there is a sense of implied (if not explicit) belief in free will. We feel someone is in charge and is either merit worthy or to blame for their ‘choices’. Taking on himself the humiliation and the calamity of the state suggests a more realistic appraisal of circumstances. In my view, this parallels Jesus when he said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” All the ills that I see around me (and within) are born out of ignorance. How can one be blamed for being ignorant? Despite the law’s ‘ignorance is no excuse’, I say it is the root cause, the only valid ‘excuse’. Being ignorant that a hook is inside the worm, a fish bites down and dies. Being ignorant that _(you name it)_ is why we suffer the unintended consequences of _(you name it)_ . Naturally, that applies to that blind tendency to either cheer the state (flag-waver) or denigrate it (complainer). Accepting what is, is difficult.

True, other forces are at work within us. The tribal instinct drives us to divide (rebel) in order to unite, to unite (obey) in order to divide. Rebelling drives us to unite with fellow rebels, obeying drives us to differentiate ourselves from the rebellious. Perhaps such instincts would be a little more manageable if we were a little less ignorant of their power, rather than clinging to wishful ideals like 'peace on earth' and 'free will' (of course). However, even here, I imagine there exists the instinct, 'hope springs eternal'.

Finally, of course, even our ignorance is also rooted in instinct. Animals, including us, are innately set up to regard weakness and loss through death as completely opposite to victorious and powerful. Life would not function if it were otherwise; life is driven to resist the obvious. Simply put, life is an illusion built upon a fantasy that strong overcomes the weak. And so, as this chapter puts it, ‘straightforward words (i.e., the weak overcomes the strong) seem paradoxical’. I find that it is only by being alive to [this] difficulty that one can avoid it (at least somewhat). 'Alive' meaning a moment to moment awareness of the instinct-based hoodwinks nature pulls on us. How 'somewhat' this turns out depends upon how 'alive' I am. Hmm, that is oddly ironic, which figures.

As literal as my English would allows:
Under heaven nothing is more yielding and weak than water.
Yet for attacking the hard and strong nothing can surpass,
Because of its nothing-ness and ease.
Of weakness and loss through death, victorious and powerful.
Under heaven there's no one who does not know — no one can do.
Because of this, the holy person says,
Accepting the humiliation of the state means host of the state.
Accepting the state's misfortune serves for all under heaven great.
Straight and honest words seem inside out.

Literal word for word, except that I place 'of' in front rather than behind:
heaven under none soft (flexible, yielding) weak (feeble, lose through death) than water.
but attack hard (strong) strong (strive, stubborn), nothing ability (can) surpass (victory, be equal to),
use (take; according to; because of) its nothing (nil, not have) and (as well as) easy of.
weak (feeble, lose through death) of surpass (victory, be equal to) strong (strive, stubborn).
soft (flexible, yielding) of surpass (victory, be equal to) firm (strong, indomitable, just).
heaven under no one not know no one ability (can) go (travel; temporary; do; perform).
this use (take; according to; because of) holy person say,
accept (endure) of nation humiliation call (mean) state host (owner, master, manage, main).
accept nation ominous (inauspicious) this do (act; serve as; become; be; mean) heaven under great.
straight (situated in the middle; honest) words like (seem; as if) turn over (inside out; on the contrary)]]> Taoism and the Tao Te Ching http://www.centertao.org//posting.php?mode=reply&t=752 Carl Sun, 24 Aug 2008 23:06:16 GMT http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4353#4353 http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4352#4352 Each week we address one chapter of the Tao Te Ching. The Tao Te Ching can be obscure, especially if you think you're supposed to understand what it's saying! We find it easier and more instructive to simply contemplate how the chapter resonates with your personal experience. Becoming more aware at this fundamental level simplifies life. This approach conforms to the view that true knowing lies within ourselves. Thus, when a passage in the scripture resonates, you've found your inner truth. The same applies for when it evokes a question; questions are the grist for self realization.

Chapter 78
In the world there is nothing more submissive and weak than water. Yet for
attacking that which is hard and strong nothing can surpass it. This is because
there is nothing that can take its place.

That the weak overcomes the strong,
And the submissive overcomes the hard,
Everyone in the world knows yet no one can put this knowledge into practice.

Therefore the sage says,
One who takes on himself the humiliation of the state,
Is called a ruler worthy of offering sacrifices to the gods of earth and millet;
One who takes on himself the calamity of the state,
Is called a king worthy of dominion over the entire empire.

Straightforward words
Seem paradoxical.

Read commentary previously posted for this chapter.
Read notes on translations
Now, do it too at Wengu!]]> Taoism and the Tao Te Ching http://www.centertao.org//posting.php?mode=reply&t=752 Carl Sun, 24 Aug 2008 22:27:35 GMT http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4352#4352 http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4351#4351 Note: I italicize phrases I borrow from the chapter, and link to phrases I borrow from other chapters to help tie chapters together. While making it more tedious to read, the Tao Te Ching is best pondered in the context of the whole.]

I prefer the vagueness of the literal compared with D.C. Lau’s, ‘Who is there that can take what he himself has in excess and offer this to the empire? Only he who has the way’, which is out of sync with what I see. Rather, this ideal is a deeply seated wish originating in humanity’s egalitarian social instinct. It matches Christ’s, “He that hath two coats let him impart to him that hath none and he that hath meat let him do likewise”. But, as with many perceptions arising out of instinct, it is ‘self serving’. Self serving in an egalitarian paradoxical way, of course.

When we feel we actually already have more than enough, we can’t help but get rid of the surplus we feel we have. How we feel is the key. As an outsider judging another’s life, it is easy to say someone has more than enough. Yet, from a symptomatic point of view, we each acquire and cling to what we feel we need to feel balanced. The more impoverished we feel, the more we will hunger for more. On the other hand, he who knows contentment is rich regardless of how much he has. In other words, in being content, one will always have enough.

Henry David Thoreau put it this way, “A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.” Thus, in reality, the more you need to have, the poorer you are; the need to have is a symptom of feeling inadequate (i.e., emptiness). Having great excess is a symptom of poverty. On the other hand, poverty is not a symptom of great excess. Poverty is in the eye of the beholder. The only true poverty is biologically based, like physical starvation or emotional ‘starvation’ (social disconnection, isolation, loneliness) (1). Ironically, the wealthier we become, the more susceptible we are to emotional ‘starvation’. As Christ put it, “it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”

The less head scratching translation:
The way of nature is like a stretching bow.
The high restrains, the lower lifts.
The surplus decreases, the insufficient benefits.
The way of nature decreases surplus yet benefits the insufficient.
The way of man, as a rule however, decreases the insufficient so as to give to the surplus.
Who can have a surplus so as to give to nature's lows?
Only those who have the way.
The holy people use this to serve, yet do not rely on,
Meritorious deeds result, yet not dwelled within.
They don't desire to appear able and virtuous - how odd!

The more head scratching literal:
of sky (heaven; nature) way (road, principle) its (it, that; such) just as (like) open (spread; stretch) bow-shaped give (help; together with).
tall (high; of a high level or degree) of restrain (repress) below ( lower; inferior) of lift (raise; hold up; act; deed; move).
have (there is; exist) surplus (spare; beyond) of decrease (lose),
no (not) foot (leg; enough; full) of repair (fill; supply> benefit; use).
of sky (heaven; nature) way (road, principle),
decrease (lose) have (there is; exist) surplus (spare; beyond) yet repair (fill; supply> benefit; use) not foot (leg; enough; full).
human being (man; people) of way (road, principle), standard (norm; rule> imitate; follow) not right (correct; so> but; however),
decrease (lose) not foot (leg; enough; full) use (take; because of; so as to) give (esteem; believe in) have (there is; exist) surplus (spare; beyond).
who ability (energy; can) have (exist) surplus (beyond) use (take; because of; so as to) give (believe in) sky (heaven; nature) below (lower),
only (alone) have (there is; exist) way (road, principle).
this (that) use (take; because of; so as to) sage (saint; holy) human being (man; people) do (act; serve as; be) yet not rely on (depend on),
meritorious deed (skill; work) accomplish (succeed; become) yet not place (dwell, live).
he (she, it, they, that; such) not desire see (appear) able and virtuous heretical (irregular)!

(1) Another name for emotional ‘starvation’ would be spiritual ‘starvation’.)]]> Taoism and the Tao Te Ching http://www.centertao.org//posting.php?mode=reply&t=751 Carl Sun, 17 Aug 2008 22:30:46 GMT http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4351#4351 http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4350#4350 Each week we address one chapter of the Tao Te Ching. The Tao Te Ching can be obscure, especially if you think you're supposed to understand what it's saying! We find it easier and more instructive to simply contemplate how the chapter resonates with your personal experience. Becoming more aware at this fundamental level simplifies life. This approach conforms to the view that true knowing lies within ourselves. Thus, when a passage in the scripture resonates, you've found your inner truth. The same applies for when it evokes a question; questions are the grist for self realization.

Chapter 77
Is not the way of heaven like the stretching of a bow?
The high it presses down,
The low it lifts up;
The excessive it takes from,
The deficient it gives to.

It is the way of heaven to take from what has in excess in order to make good
what is deficient. The way of man is otherwise. It takes from those who are in
want in order to offer this to those who already have more than enough. Who is
there that can take what he himself has in excess and offer this to the empire?
Only he who has the way.

Therefore the sage benefits them yet exacts no gratitude,
Accomplishes his task yet lays claim to no merit.

Is this not because he does not wish to be considered a better man than others?

Read commentary previously posted for this chapter.
Read notes on translations
Now, do it too at Wengu!]]> Taoism and the Tao Te Ching http://www.centertao.org//posting.php?mode=reply&t=751 Carl Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:37:52 GMT http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4350#4350 http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4349#4349 may i say on behalf of all us centertao readers that we are very pleased that you have had the interest to continue with your weekly translations of the TTC.
Initially you left your translations as indistinct and shadowy as you could, tho after a while you gave us some more 'quotable/memorable' interpretations as well as the literal.
I have found these insightful ponderings so far-reaching and resonant that they lead us back to and inspire such a sense of awe with barely any attempt from you to make them beautiful and persuasive.
We will do our best to let these valuable treasures only lead us to impartiality
As the chapters fly by i wonder if at some point you will also let the dust settle on one accumulative interpretation to leave us thirsty horses.

Do i hear a YeeeHAAA ]]> 'One Who Knows Does Not Think, Speak Or Write...' http://www.centertao.org//posting.php?mode=reply&t=750 TheNowSeeker Thu, 14 Aug 2008 18:53:48 GMT http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4349#4349 http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4348#4348 It is easy to maintain a situation while it is still secure’, and so on. Back to the horse…

I can’t think of any exact parallels to the ‘lead a horse to water’ except maybe, My words are very easy to understand and very easy to put into practice, yet no one in the world can understand them or put them into practice and so forth. How is it that the ‘words are easy to understand, yet no one understands them’?

It is a question of interest. Regardless of how easy something is to understand, or how available water is to a horse, there must an interest in drinking it in. I can think of countless examples, but will recount one of the most telling for me.

To mark time during my daily headstand (yoga), I’ve recited Buddha’s Four Noble Truths for years now. Beside marking time, it offers me a succinct reminder of my life’s ideal priorities. The problem has always been how to convert the ‘ideal’ into the ‘real’! I can say unequivocally now after forty some years of doing this, that it all boils down to interest (i.e., need, desire, motivation). I have ‘understood’ the issue all along, yet I find that I only truly understand the issue in proportion to my depth of interest. In an odd way, understanding is a living thing, and depth of interest is its life’s blood. Without interest, understanding is dead understanding — mere knowledge

Interests and desires distract us from our long term priorities and seduce us into by-paths. Being interested in avoiding interesting by-paths is like desiring not to desire. To be free, one must want to be free. To drink water, a horse must want to drink.]]> 'One Who Knows Does Not Think, Speak Or Write...' http://www.centertao.org//posting.php?mode=reply&t=750 Carl Wed, 13 Aug 2008 03:38:09 GMT http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4348#4348 http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4347#4347 Note: I italicize phrases I borrow from the chapter, and link to phrases I borrow from other chapters to help tie chapters together. While making it more tedious to read, the Tao Te Ching is best pondered in the context of the whole.]

This chapter reads a little odd to me. I usually correlate death with supple and weak; life with hard and stiff, i.e., life must resist entropy. Resistance is ‘keeping a stiff upper lip’, putting up a strong and hard wall (cell wall, lipid membrane, etc.) to keep entropy at bay for life’s moment in the sun. Death returns us to the amorphous whole — returns ‘us’ to that which is without substance. Hard and stiff is hardly that which is without substance. Ironically, I find that adopting death as a model for living life makes life more alive. Setting too much store by life has the unintended consequence of diminishing life.

Certainly though, death is initially hard, stiff, dried and shriveled. But, the initial state of most everything is illusionary. As composted dead stuff demonstrates, death is entropy, embodying the opposite of hard, stiff, dried and shriveled. While weakness is the means the way employs, living things need strength to maintain homeostasis. Life must act! Humanity over acts and reacts and so needs to know the benefit of resorting to no action. Our problem lies in the lack of balance civilization fosters. Civilization enables us to be less pliant and yielding than we might other wise be in the wild.

Also, the ‘yin and yang’ of this chapter is odd. Yin corresponds to supple and weak, yang to strong and hard. Yang is above ‘superior’, yin is below ‘inferior’. Of course, once we bring mysterious sameness into view the whole picture collapses into a subtle, makeshift ,tentative, vacant, murky mess of words. Isn’t the Taoist point of view nifty!

The weak and fragile translation?
People, of life weak and delicate,
Their death hard and unyielding.
Plants, of life soft and yielding,
Their death withered and haggard.
Therefore the hard and unyielding, of death only,
The weak and fragile, of life only.
Destuction is normal for the use of strong weapons,
Breaking is normal for the strong tree.
The big and powerful dwell below,
The weak and fragile dwell above.

The hard and unyielding literal?
person of existence (life) also (too; either) weak (delicate),
his (her; its; their; they; that; such) die (death; extremely; rigid) also (too; either) strong (firm; unyielding).
grass (careless; hasty) tree (wood) of existence (life) also (too; either) soft (supple, yielding) fragile (brittle; crisp),
his (her; its; their; they; that; such) die (death; extremely; rigid) withered (haggard).
therefore the strong (firm; unyielding) die (death; extremely; rigid) of on foot (empty; only; follower; believer; imprisonment),
the weak (delicate) existence (life) of on foot (empty; only; follower; believer; imprisonment).
this use (take; because of) weapons stubborn (strive, strong) standard (norm, follow) extinguish (put out; destroy,
tree stubborn (strive, strong) standard (norm; follow) break (lose; bend).
big and powerful (powerful; formidable) be situated in (manage, dwell; live) below (down; under; underneath; lower; inferior),
weak (delicate) be situated in (manage, dwell; live) upper (higher; superior; previous; fill; supply; serve)]]> Taoism and the Tao Te Ching http://www.centertao.org//posting.php?mode=reply&t=749 Carl Sun, 10 Aug 2008 23:22:35 GMT http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4347#4347 http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4346#4346 Each week we address one chapter of the Tao Te Ching. The Tao Te Ching can be obscure, especially if you think you're supposed to understand what it's saying! We find it easier and more instructive to simply contemplate how the chapter resonates with your personal experience. Becoming more aware at this fundamental level simplifies life. This approach conforms to the view that true knowing lies within ourselves. Thus, when a passage in the scripture resonates, you've found your inner truth. The same applies for when it evokes a question; questions are the grist for self realization.

Chapter 76
A man is supple and weak when living, but hard and stiff when dead. Grass and
trees are pliant and fragile when living, but dried and shriveled when dead.
Thus the hard and the strong are the comrades of death; the supple and the weak
are the comrades of life.

Therefore a weapon that is strong will not vanquish;
A tree that is strong will suffer the axe.
The strong and big takes the lower position,
The supple and weak takes the higher position.

Read commentary previously posted for this chapter.
Read notes on translations
Now, do it too at Wengu!]]> Taoism and the Tao Te Ching http://www.centertao.org//posting.php?mode=reply&t=749 Carl Sun, 10 Aug 2008 23:00:22 GMT http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4346#4346 http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4345#4345

NotTheConstantName says:

Carl says: Oh that's easy. All that is required is a loss of faith in word meaning. ... Cease believing that monkeys are monkeys, that pink is pink and presto chango! Just say "No!" I think that you are glossing over a step there: HOW do I lose faith and stop believing? Surely that is not an intentional act. It's like telling me to fall in love, or to have hiccoughs; that I can get rid of my sweet tooth if I will simply dislike the taste of sugar. But how do I do that?.

Perhaps we are asking the 'wrong' question. Rather than asking "HOW do I lose faith and stop believing?", ask "WHY do I have faith and believe in _(you name it)_?" Answer that and you may begin to see "HOW". Asking why helps 'just saying no' actually work (i.e., as knowing deepens). Personally, I've found that WHY must precede HOW.

Quote:

What I am after is a technique for producing that end result. A technique, because a willful intention just isn't going to work.

True. "Willful intention" is like fighting fire with fire.

Quote:

Isn't your Correlations one such technique? And another might be meditation. Another route (although not a technique) might be an external crisis..

Correlations only work if preceded by WHY. Maybe they are just a place to hang your WHY.

Quote:

Although I might intentionally (using my will) undertake to use such methods, these methods do not in themselves employ my will to make things happen. This is what I meant when I said that thinking will not get you to stop thinking.

But again, I'd say "to stop thinking" is not necessary or even desirable. It is the depth of trust we feel in our thinkings that stirs things up. Why is the most potent weapon we have to vanquish that trust.

Biologically speaking, I suspect that we are driven to find the answers as quickly as possible to fill up the whys we feel. So I ask myself, HOW do we keeping the whys alive moment to moment ? The answer, HOW, lies in the WHY.]]> 'One Who Knows Does Not Think, Speak Or Write...' http://www.centertao.org//posting.php?mode=reply&t=737 Carl Sun, 10 Aug 2008 06:51:25 GMT http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4345#4345 http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4344#4344

Carl says:

Oh that's easy. All that is required is a loss of faith in word meaning. ... Cease believing that monkeys are monkeys, that pink is pink and presto chango!

Just say "No!"

I think that you are glossing over a step there: HOW do I lose faith and stop believing?

Surely that is not an intentional act.

It's like telling me to fall in love, or to have hiccoughs; that I can get rid of my sweet tooth if I will simply dislike the taste of sugar.

But how do I do that?

What I am after is a technique for producing that end result. A technique, because a willful intention just isn't going to work.

Isn't your Correlations one such technique? And another might be meditation. Another route (although not a technique) might be an external crisis.

Although I might intentionally (using my will) undertake to use such methods, these methods do not in themselves employ my will to make things happen.

This is what I meant when I said that thinking will not get you to stop thinking.]]> 'One Who Knows Does Not Think, Speak Or Write...' http://www.centertao.org//posting.php?mode=reply&t=737 NotTheConstantName Sun, 10 Aug 2008 01:24:57 GMT http://www.centertao.org/viewtopic.php?p=4344#4344